Limud Torah

with Rav Chaim

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Wed Nedarim 66

 

The Tana Kama says that if he makes a Neder from this ugly woman and then finds out she was really beautiful, he made the Neder mistakenly so the Neder was never valid. However, if at that time she was ugly, but she developed later  to become beautiful, she remains Assur to him.

Ran (before) asks, that we already said that if he makes a Neder on a woman because of his dastardly father, he's Muttur to her if her father dies or does T'shuva. We say that it's as if he made a condition, and as long as the reason is no longer valid, so the Neder is no longer in effect. Why dont' we say the same here?

The Rashba answers: over there, it's apt for the father to either die or do T'shuva, therefore we say he had in mind that the Neder should only last while the father is still a bum. However, it's not to often that the ugly turn beautiful, so we say he meant to Assur her completely.

However, R' Shmuel answers: that if he would say he makes a Neder from her because she's ugly, then when she becomes beautiful she's Muter, since it seems that it's a condition, since he gives it specifically as the reason she's Assur. However, our case is that he makes a neder from this ugly woman. So we don't see he's giving a reason, but rather  just identifying the women. Therefore we assume he Assurs her forever.

 

Tues Nedarin 65

 

The Gemara says that if you made a neder from partaking any pleasure from someone, he should not Matir the Neder unless that person is also present.

The Ran inquires: what happens B'Dieved if he does Matir it when the other party isn't there. There was those who want to say that B'Dieved it's permitted. The proof is from Mesechta Gitten that they were worried if the  widow, to prove she didn't collect her kesuva yet, makes a Neder on a food that it should be Assur to her if she already collected it, perhaps she'll go to a Chachum behind everyone's back and be Matir it. But dioesn't she need to Matir it in front of the heirs (who she made the Neder for.) So, we must say that's B'Dieved it's Mutur.

Similarly, we see that Tzidkiyahu swore to Nevuchadnetzer not to reveal his secret. It bothered him so much to hold in the secret, he had the Sanhedrin Matir it. How can he do so, if it doesn't work? We must say that it's B'Dieved Matir.

(This that the Sanhedrin Matir it L'chatchila, was because the the Mitzvah to listen to the king supersedes this prohibition to not Matir behind the other guy's back. Alternatively,  it was interfering with Tzidkiyahu's  learning and other duties, so it was Mutur to do so.)

However, Ravad held that it's B'Dieved not Matir. In the case of the widow, after the Neder was made, it was no more interest to the heirs whether she keeps her Neder or not (since what was done by collecting it twice was done), so therefore she has the right to Matir if they're not there. Or perhaps, although it doesn't work, she might do it because she might think it works. The same by Tzidkiyahu, perhaps they did do wrong. After all, Hashem punished them for it.

 

Mon Nedarim 64

There is a Machlokes between R Eliezer that hold that one may regret his Neder for Kavod Av (that it reflects bad on his parents) and the Chachumim disagree.

R' Tzadok says they would argue even regretting for Kavod Hashem (Ran in the name of Sifri: that it is like you made an oath in his name.) The Chachumim says that R' Eliezer would agree that you can't. Abaya says since you might say you regretted because of Kavod Hashem when you didn't, since you're imbarised to say that you truly didn't care about his Kavod.)

Ran explains that the argument between the rabanan and R' Eliezer if you may lie for Kavod Av, or since it's not as bad as Kavod Hashem he doesn't care if he tells the truth.

Rava explains since all nedarim could be knocked off with such a claim, he might not go to get his Neder Matir, since he'll thinks it will be automatically Mutur.

Ran says but by Kivod Av they argue if it would automatically be a good regret for all Nedarim, or there are small Nedarim that wouldn't reflect too badly on the parents that he made it.

Alternatively, the Rava holds like Abaya by Kivod Hashem, that we're afraid that he'll lie. However, he disagrees completely that we would be worried for this by Kivod Av, since no one would be too embarrised to  say he doesn't care about their kavod. So therefore he needs a new reason why the rabanan says you cannot regret for their kavod. So we must say that the Chachamim has this new Chashas taht all Nedarim could be  Matir with this, so they won't bother having them Matir. R' Eliezer is not worried for that to happen.

 
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